Comments on: Vectors to Final

By: David A. Strahle, MD, CFI-AI

David A. Strahle, MD, CFI-AI — Mon, 11 May 2009 05:10:09 +0000

THANK YOU FOR ALL YOUR RESPONSES…THEY ARE OF GREAT HELP. OUR TOWER HAS NOT MISSED THE GLIDESLOPE SINCE OUR FIRST DISCUSSION WITH THEM REGARDING THIS ISSUE. THEY ARE BACK TO NUMBER ONE AGAIN IN OUR BOOK !

By: Ella

Ella — Mon, 13 Apr 2009 17:08:31 +0000

I really liked your blog! i read 4 others that are on similar subjets, but they domt update very often, thanks.

By: Steve Milberger

Steve Milberger — Tue, 04 Nov 2008 14:55:38 +0000

Part 135 Jet Pilot – SoCal appch routinly vectors and clears you for the appch well above the glide slope “slam dunk” leaving you to perform a rather agressive dive to intercept. Very poor controller performance.

By: Mark Smith

Mark Smith — Mon, 03 Nov 2008 19:29:18 +0000

Please note that on my posting, I have the option (with weather above minimums) and without a useable glideslope indication, to transition to a localizer approach and keep that as an option. Then I still must make sure that the approach is stabilized at least 500 feet above minimums.

By: Mark Smith

Mark Smith — Mon, 03 Nov 2008 19:24:35 +0000

Quite often I have been vectored to an ILS with a quick last minute turn to make the “within 30 degrees” of the localizer and as much as 1000 feet above where I should be to intercept the glideslope. I fly a PC12 always single pilot. The autopilot does not capture the glideslope from above, therefore I have the choice of disconnecting the autopilot and manually initiating a rapid descent to capture the glideslope or to increase the rate of descent on the altitude controller to expidite a descent to capture the glideslope. Neither alternative is desirable in IMC. Generally, if the ceiling is high enough that I will break out well above minimums, I will recapture the glideslope (usually manually). If we are close to minimums I will ask to be vectored around again at a lower altitude to intercept the ILS. A stabilized approach usually comes out to about 500 feet/min, having to go to 2000 feet/min to salvage an approach is not a safe alternative.

By: Bruce

Bruce — Tue, 28 Oct 2008 22:50:36 +0000

Christa….

My opinion, and there may well be others, you should have advised the examiner that you would not be able to stabilize the approach, given the set up. Then politely call ATC and ask for a new approach as Marty has counseled above. As you get more experience, these miscues can sometimes be caught early enough to sort out. Do not let ATC push you into something that is uncomfortable. It’s rare but it happens.

By: Christa

Christa — Tue, 28 Oct 2008 16:12:57 +0000

While on my recent instrument checkride, ATC vectored me to about a mile out from the FAF to intercept the ILS. Problem was– I was over 800 feet high at that point. Even once I took the power all the way out, I couldn’t catch the glideslope. Given that I was on a checkride, I didn’t want to blow my airspeed target, but I really wasn’t sure what to do in that situation. I reached the MAP for the localizer, and went missed at that point, never having gotten closer than full deflection on the glideslope. Given what others have said– it sounds like I was correct in assuming that ATC really should not have put me in this position. At that point, is the correct action to still try and capture the glideslope? Or should I have called ATC back and alerted them to the issue? Luckily- the DE also thought ATC had screwed up my approach and did not hold it against me on the checkride; I still passed without an issue!

By: Marty Coddington

Marty Coddington — Mon, 27 Oct 2008 21:31:31 +0000

Gee Bruce, you really know how to stir the emotions. While you know a bit of my background let me tell the others that I was a controller, ATC instructor, and Air Traffic Supervisor for 26+ years. I then went to flying and was a regional turboprop captain for 10 years. Total instrument flying comes to 52 years.

Thess abuses can be experienced in the NAS. Some facilities are excellent and you seldom or never see it. Other facilities don’t seem to care how unprofessionally the work gets done, or how little the controllers understand of why their techniques are important.

Yes, some autopilots will intercept from the top but Mr. Gorham gave the best answer as to why this should not be done. You will never get a false glide slope coming from the “underneath” intercept. If you decide to accept the intercept from the top, you must carefully monitor your altitude vs your position and if your altitude does not match the published altitude (2067 @ MEANS), you must immediately disconnect the glideslope coupling or the whole autopilot because you are not flying a legal glideslope. You may be able to recapture the localizer, but whether or not you do is not the point. The point now becomes that if you continue following the localizer, YOU MUST USE LOCALIZER ONLY MINIMUMS !

Reading all the thoughtful, technical, and wise comments indicates that our skies are full of really great pilots. For those who are accepting the abuse, please stop. Ask for a vector to intercept at or below the glideslope with an angle of 30 degrees or less (FAA manual JO7110.65S, paragraph 5-9-2). All of us will be better off if it is done the right way. The FAA asks us to fly our machinery the right way and we should not hesitate to ask for equal handling from ATC.

By: jim denike

jim denike — Sun, 26 Oct 2008 21:08:50 +0000

one of the best preventives for avoiding the snare of a false glideslope is to recall the rule of “300′ per NM”. Say the airport touchdown elevation is 1500′MSL and you are precisely 3.0 NM out from the runway, you should be at an altitude of 900′ AGL or 2400′ MSL. If you’re much higher and you’re showing an extraordinary rate of descent to stay on glideslope indication, you’ve already suckered in. Have option of transferring to a LOC only approach or a missed. Never a good idea to play catch up here. ATC will gladly allow a vector or a 360 on final, traffic permitting.
JJD
DoubleJay Aircraft

By: David Heberling

David Heberling — Sun, 26 Oct 2008 00:46:38 +0000

I fly Airbus 319/320 for business, and a V35B Bonanza for pleasure. Like the previous message, situational awareness is key to a successful outcome, especially when flying airplanes. Who is flying the airplane, you or the controller? You should never let a controller put you into a situation that you feel is unsafe. Plus, you always have an out…declare a missed approach and try again. Above all else, be stabilized by 1,000′ AGL.