Comments on: Watch List

By: Victor Raymond

Victor Raymond — Sun, 14 Sep 2008 22:17:50 +0000

As a long time CE-441 Conquest pilot I can attest that is and easy airplane to land but things can and will go wrong.
One time the PIC (not me) flared too high and tried to go around with the aircraft way too high and way too slow. A small application of power and slight nose down by the co-pilot recovered the landing.
Another time the same pilot tried to put the props in beta while still flying because he was too fast. Again the SEC was quick enough the move his hands forward enough to get the props out of beta before something untoward occurred.

By: Bruce Landsberg

Bruce Landsberg — Mon, 28 Jul 2008 02:04:03 +0000

As usual, you are making some good points. Obviously we’ll wait to see what the investigation shows – at this point it appears that the pilot was by himself.

Don’s comment on not going around is perhaps as much about timing as anything. One you’ve damaged the aircraft, staying on the ground is better but that takes a very good sense of what is actually happening and better judgment than many accident pilots likely have.

Thanks for your thoughts….

By: Phil Browning

Phil Browning — Sun, 27 Jul 2008 05:22:46 +0000

I still remember the disquieting sensation of being much too fast on short final at Carson City, NV one hot summer afternoon. The gauges said I was fine, but my peripheral and forward vision said “way too fast”: I went around. The next approach was slightly slower and I planted the PA28-140 with a firmness I’ve not since repeated.

High DA adds groundspeed. A modest runway length at high DA adds challenge, sometimes fear. The pilot of the 414 might have felt some motivation to get the landing roll started asap. Still, I’d like to see more concrete information.

By: Barry camp

Barry camp — Sat, 26 Jul 2008 23:29:18 +0000

I have flown with pilots that want to raise the flaps the instant the wheels touch.
I think this is a bad habit. I think the airbrake advantage of the flaps is as good as
the wheelbrake advantage with the flaps up. As a copilot I have endured the displeasure of pic’s by waiting until the aircraft was firmly on the ground to
retract flaps.

By: J Mac

J Mac — Sat, 26 Jul 2008 08:01:21 +0000

Not enough information obviously for other than speculation but it is hard to believe an experienced TP pilot would lose the landing picture enough even at high density altitude to go so far as getting airborne upon nose wheel contact unless the pilot flew a very hot final and perceived the need to slam the nose down for max braking or possibly tracked the flaps just before or on touchdown. With just under 5500 ft available and landing on the numbers, the runway length should have been sufficient for the conditions present to not create the need for slamming the nose down and getting on brakes right away. The resulting pilot induced oscillation after landing is not indicative of an experienced pilot flying an on-speed routine landing with no configuration changes. Purely opinion but the synopsis sounds like flying too hot on final/landing (maybe no-flap speeds or above) coupled with a possible configuration change (tracked flaps) on or just before touchdown resulting in excessive nose low trim forces which were difficult to overcome for the situation

By: G. Newcombe

G. Newcombe — Fri, 25 Jul 2008 17:59:09 +0000

Were there others on board the aircraft? Perhaps the pilot(s) were allowing a novice to land the airplane in “benevolent” conditions. Hard to imagine an experienced pilot getting caught in something like this. Or, as Bob Reid said, perhaps the pilot was ill.

By: G. Newcombe

G. Newcombe — Fri, 25 Jul 2008 17:58:26 +0000

By: R. Clement

R. Clement — Fri, 25 Jul 2008 17:09:36 +0000

A trend is starting. It also appears that after the first bounce the pilot relaxed or applied forward elevator and probably was at idle, which would cause the repeated uncontrolled bounces. After the propeller strike any go around attempt, would probably not be successful. Since the aircraft stayed on the runway, the crosswind, probably wasn’t a factor.

In the past two years there have been two other fatal accidents involving more complex aircraft being operated by under qualified pilots. Lack of training will undoubtedly be a contributing cause in this accident.

By: Stephen W. Teal

Stephen W. Teal — Fri, 25 Jul 2008 16:51:37 +0000

I was at Sunriver shortly after this tragic mishap occured. The consenus of those who witnessed it said that he apparently hit his nosewheel first and then began to porpoise.

I can’t help it but wonder if, since he was landing a high-performance turbocharged airplane at a fairly high field elevation (4164 feet) that perhaps he flared, if at all, too late to avoid hitting the nosewheel.

In the high, thin air of Sunriver, it’s a density altitude trap each and every Summer and the possibility that he did not anticipate the need to flare a bit earlier in this thinner Summer air may have caused this terrible mishap, witnessed by lots of people.

Stephen W. Teal

By: Don Morris

Don Morris — Fri, 25 Jul 2008 16:42:42 +0000

Many years ago, prior to my becoming a pilot, I was subjected to a long and impassioned lesson on “go arounds” from one of the Air force’s most experienced and senior accident investigators. He had just returned from the Philipines after the DC-8 from Viet Nam crashed on landing.

His lesson is very contrary to what we are taught in flight school and per the FAA regimen. Namely, once the plane is on the ground in a manner that the people will most likely survive, chop the throttle and never try to retrieve anything in the name of pride or bent metal.

He gave numerous examples and reasons, and I have always operated that way. When my judgement and skills were inadequate to provide a respectable landing, then my judgement is inadequate to determine whether a higher airspeed and more power is actually safer. Of course, bouncing high and and being nose high, might require intervention with the throttle. Though this has happened more when I am in the safety pilot position than otherwise.