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	<title>Comments on: Towers in flat Terrain &#8211; They&#8217;re out there!</title>
	<atom:link href="http://blog.aopa.org/leadingedge/?feed=rss2&#038;p=370" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://blog.aopa.org/leadingedge/?p=370</link>
	<description>A place to discuss safety-of-flight issues, procedures, techniques, and judgment.</description>
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		<title>By: Jim Seaman</title>
		<link>http://blog.aopa.org/leadingedge/?p=370&#038;cpage=1#comment-25406</link>
		<dc:creator>Jim Seaman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 14 Sep 2009 21:06:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.aopa.org/asfblog/?p=370#comment-25406</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[More to the point; &quot;Flying is not inherently dangerous, but it is terribly unforgiving of error&quot;]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>More to the point; &#8220;Flying is not inherently dangerous, but it is terribly unforgiving of error&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Dan Coffman</title>
		<link>http://blog.aopa.org/leadingedge/?p=370&#038;cpage=1#comment-25386</link>
		<dc:creator>Dan Coffman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 14 Sep 2009 16:21:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.aopa.org/asfblog/?p=370#comment-25386</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&quot;There are old pilots and bold pilots but there are no old bold pilots&quot; 

Amen]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;There are old pilots and bold pilots but there are no old bold pilots&#8221; </p>
<p>Amen</p>
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		<title>By: Jack</title>
		<link>http://blog.aopa.org/leadingedge/?p=370&#038;cpage=1#comment-25352</link>
		<dc:creator>Jack</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 14 Sep 2009 03:06:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.aopa.org/asfblog/?p=370#comment-25352</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Bruce,

You might want to check a chart.  Oklahoma is flat...in the NW portion of the state.  With seven mountain ranges in the rest of the state, most on the eastern portion, the state as a whole is far from flat, although hollywood seems to like to depict it as such.  The pariticular tower this man hit is on a hill top almost straight north of RVS, and just west of downtown, which he would have also hit had he gone to the east.   RVS is in fact surrounded by hills on three sides but the airport itself is in the river valley created by the Arkansas river.   
Years ago a fatal airline accident happened when they were trying to divert around thunderstorms.  This was in the far southeast portion of the state.  One of the final cockpit conversations was the pilot telling the co-pilot he need not check elevations as &quot;everyone knows Oklahoma is flat&quot;.  They flew right into a 2000&#039; plus mountain seconds later (mountain is defined as a verticle rise of 2000&#039; or more from the surrounding terrain.  Poteau, OK thus claims to have the &quot;world&#039;s highest hill&quot; as just to the east of Poteau rises a 1998&#039; foot hill.)  This is all in an area of the Sans Bois, Kiamichi and Quachita Mountians, all in SE Oklahoma. NE Oklahoma, where Tulsa is located is basically the edge of the Ozarks, more specifically where the Boston Mountains and the Ozarks converge, mostly to the east of Tulsa.   Please don&#039;t tell anyone though, as eastern Oklahoma is a wonderful, unspoiled, very green area.  Once people come here we cannot get rid of them....hence the saying &quot;the thing Oklahomans fear most?....a yankee with a U-haul.&quot;  Although I find the texass people with U-hauls almost as annoying.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Bruce,</p>
<p>You might want to check a chart.  Oklahoma is flat&#8230;in the NW portion of the state.  With seven mountain ranges in the rest of the state, most on the eastern portion, the state as a whole is far from flat, although hollywood seems to like to depict it as such.  The pariticular tower this man hit is on a hill top almost straight north of RVS, and just west of downtown, which he would have also hit had he gone to the east.   RVS is in fact surrounded by hills on three sides but the airport itself is in the river valley created by the Arkansas river.<br />
Years ago a fatal airline accident happened when they were trying to divert around thunderstorms.  This was in the far southeast portion of the state.  One of the final cockpit conversations was the pilot telling the co-pilot he need not check elevations as &#8220;everyone knows Oklahoma is flat&#8221;.  They flew right into a 2000&#8242; plus mountain seconds later (mountain is defined as a verticle rise of 2000&#8242; or more from the surrounding terrain.  Poteau, OK thus claims to have the &#8220;world&#8217;s highest hill&#8221; as just to the east of Poteau rises a 1998&#8242; foot hill.)  This is all in an area of the Sans Bois, Kiamichi and Quachita Mountians, all in SE Oklahoma. NE Oklahoma, where Tulsa is located is basically the edge of the Ozarks, more specifically where the Boston Mountains and the Ozarks converge, mostly to the east of Tulsa.   Please don&#8217;t tell anyone though, as eastern Oklahoma is a wonderful, unspoiled, very green area.  Once people come here we cannot get rid of them&#8230;.hence the saying &#8220;the thing Oklahomans fear most?&#8230;.a yankee with a U-haul.&#8221;  Although I find the texass people with U-hauls almost as annoying.</p>
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		<title>By: David West</title>
		<link>http://blog.aopa.org/leadingedge/?p=370&#038;cpage=1#comment-25317</link>
		<dc:creator>David West</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 13 Sep 2009 17:00:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.aopa.org/asfblog/?p=370#comment-25317</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I pulled up the pilot&#039;s certificate on the FAA website and there is no mention of an instrument rating.  I also retreived the METARS that were issued out of TUL before and after the accident they are posted on my blog.  (I know Tulsa is not the departure airport, but it was quite close).  As I stated on my blog, happylandings.blogspot.com, the pilot had no business flying in the foggy conditions without an instrument rating.  Furthermore, he was flying much to close to the ground.  It is my believe that he was attempting a scud run beneath the cloud layer.  He irresponsibly departed in conditions that were beyond his training and three people paid the ultimate price for his poor decision.  His private pilot certificate was issued in 1987.  Why would he not take the time at some point during the past 22 years to get an instrument rating?  If you don&#039;t have yours, get it!  You&#039;ll wonder how you ever flew without it.

As for the comments regarding obtaining instrument clearance, I regularly fly from airports in Class B airspace - Charlotte Douglass, Tampa International, Las Vegas McCarran as well as towered airports beneath the Class B and I have never had to wait for a clearance longer than the time that it took the controller to pull it up.  I have had to wait as long as 10 minutes at the hold short line for landing and departing traffic from CLT and TPA, but this is certainly no more excessive a wait than the airlines have to endure.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I pulled up the pilot&#8217;s certificate on the FAA website and there is no mention of an instrument rating.  I also retreived the METARS that were issued out of TUL before and after the accident they are posted on my blog.  (I know Tulsa is not the departure airport, but it was quite close).  As I stated on my blog, happylandings.blogspot.com, the pilot had no business flying in the foggy conditions without an instrument rating.  Furthermore, he was flying much to close to the ground.  It is my believe that he was attempting a scud run beneath the cloud layer.  He irresponsibly departed in conditions that were beyond his training and three people paid the ultimate price for his poor decision.  His private pilot certificate was issued in 1987.  Why would he not take the time at some point during the past 22 years to get an instrument rating?  If you don&#8217;t have yours, get it!  You&#8217;ll wonder how you ever flew without it.</p>
<p>As for the comments regarding obtaining instrument clearance, I regularly fly from airports in Class B airspace &#8211; Charlotte Douglass, Tampa International, Las Vegas McCarran as well as towered airports beneath the Class B and I have never had to wait for a clearance longer than the time that it took the controller to pull it up.  I have had to wait as long as 10 minutes at the hold short line for landing and departing traffic from CLT and TPA, but this is certainly no more excessive a wait than the airlines have to endure.</p>
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		<title>By: William Campbell</title>
		<link>http://blog.aopa.org/leadingedge/?p=370&#038;cpage=1#comment-25285</link>
		<dc:creator>William Campbell</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 12 Sep 2009 19:36:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.aopa.org/asfblog/?p=370#comment-25285</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[For those not rated, the procedure is generally, call ground report N# IFR to destination.  Grnd will advise flight plan and then provide clearance limit, route, altitude, frequency and sqwauk code.  Pilot then reads back the clearance completely. If so, ground say read back correct, and you get clearance to taxi to active.
A call is made to tower when ready for take-off. Once cleared one then flies the flight plan as issued.  Frequency, at RVS for example, would go to Tulsa, then ultimately to center.  My flights in and out of RVS have always been from OUN, which is in Norman OK.  Sometimes I have gotten KC Ctr and sometimes FTW center, but I have always talked to someone from start up to landing.  No flight plan would have been filed for a VFR altitude without some question being raised.  I did this recently when I changed an existing VFR  to IFR flightplan and forgot to change the altitude, when I called clearance delivery I was informed the altitude was not an IFR altitude and I amended it.  Even so, the altitude was only cleared to the proper IFR altitude.
I am guessing that he was attempting to fly the river, hoping for something better to appear.  My experiences at RVS have always found very helpful and attentive ATC personnel.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>For those not rated, the procedure is generally, call ground report N# IFR to destination.  Grnd will advise flight plan and then provide clearance limit, route, altitude, frequency and sqwauk code.  Pilot then reads back the clearance completely. If so, ground say read back correct, and you get clearance to taxi to active.<br />
A call is made to tower when ready for take-off. Once cleared one then flies the flight plan as issued.  Frequency, at RVS for example, would go to Tulsa, then ultimately to center.  My flights in and out of RVS have always been from OUN, which is in Norman OK.  Sometimes I have gotten KC Ctr and sometimes FTW center, but I have always talked to someone from start up to landing.  No flight plan would have been filed for a VFR altitude without some question being raised.  I did this recently when I changed an existing VFR  to IFR flightplan and forgot to change the altitude, when I called clearance delivery I was informed the altitude was not an IFR altitude and I amended it.  Even so, the altitude was only cleared to the proper IFR altitude.<br />
I am guessing that he was attempting to fly the river, hoping for something better to appear.  My experiences at RVS have always found very helpful and attentive ATC personnel.</p>
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		<title>By: Larry Clark</title>
		<link>http://blog.aopa.org/leadingedge/?p=370&#038;cpage=1#comment-25264</link>
		<dc:creator>Larry Clark</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 12 Sep 2009 02:20:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.aopa.org/asfblog/?p=370#comment-25264</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Check the NTSB report and the Flightaware IFR flight plan for N1228H  The flight was 5 minutes long.  The climb rate was only 180 ft per minute.  It&#039;s not clear if he had a instrument rating but he did file.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Check the NTSB report and the Flightaware IFR flight plan for N1228H  The flight was 5 minutes long.  The climb rate was only 180 ft per minute.  It&#8217;s not clear if he had a instrument rating but he did file.</p>
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		<title>By: Jim Seaman</title>
		<link>http://blog.aopa.org/leadingedge/?p=370&#038;cpage=1#comment-25263</link>
		<dc:creator>Jim Seaman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 12 Sep 2009 02:10:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.aopa.org/asfblog/?p=370#comment-25263</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Just to clarify for those not familiar with RVS.  RVS was using 1L/R that day with a departure heading of 007 degrees.  There was track and altitude information available on flightwaware.com the first day after the accident, but I note that it is no longer there.  Info, if I remember it correctly, was from very shortly after takeoff until the target disappeared.  Toward the end of the flight the aircraft turned further left from 300 to about 270.  Rumor has it that there was a &quot;mayday&quot; call, but I do not know if it was on tower (probably) or on approach or when it occurred.  Presumably, we will have access to the tower and approach tapes when the NTSB releases them.  I got the initial NTSB report through a link on the Tulsa World website.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Just to clarify for those not familiar with RVS.  RVS was using 1L/R that day with a departure heading of 007 degrees.  There was track and altitude information available on flightwaware.com the first day after the accident, but I note that it is no longer there.  Info, if I remember it correctly, was from very shortly after takeoff until the target disappeared.  Toward the end of the flight the aircraft turned further left from 300 to about 270.  Rumor has it that there was a &#8220;mayday&#8221; call, but I do not know if it was on tower (probably) or on approach or when it occurred.  Presumably, we will have access to the tower and approach tapes when the NTSB releases them.  I got the initial NTSB report through a link on the Tulsa World website.</p>
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		<title>By: R Anderson</title>
		<link>http://blog.aopa.org/leadingedge/?p=370&#038;cpage=1#comment-25262</link>
		<dc:creator>R Anderson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 12 Sep 2009 00:37:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.aopa.org/asfblog/?p=370#comment-25262</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[The tulsa world stated that the pilot had filed ifr. The faa has the pilot having a private ticket only; not instrument rated.


Not as uncommon as you might think.  A BE55 departed my last assigned airport, IFR.  He unfortunately took off without ever calling tower.  No big deal.  However, in doing a records check, prior to issuing a letter of warning, FSDO found that he had only a PPL, no instrument rating, no multi engine rating.  The letter of warning of course resulted in a more serious penalty.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The tulsa world stated that the pilot had filed ifr. The faa has the pilot having a private ticket only; not instrument rated.</p>
<p>Not as uncommon as you might think.  A BE55 departed my last assigned airport, IFR.  He unfortunately took off without ever calling tower.  No big deal.  However, in doing a records check, prior to issuing a letter of warning, FSDO found that he had only a PPL, no instrument rating, no multi engine rating.  The letter of warning of course resulted in a more serious penalty.</p>
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		<title>By: William Campbell</title>
		<link>http://blog.aopa.org/leadingedge/?p=370&#038;cpage=1#comment-25259</link>
		<dc:creator>William Campbell</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 11 Sep 2009 20:50:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.aopa.org/asfblog/?p=370#comment-25259</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[It further occurs to me that, as I sit here looking at my ASF mailer, &quot;What Went Wrong&quot;, might be interest to at least superficially address in OKC this coming Tuesday evening.

How many IFR pilots file VFR altitudes?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It further occurs to me that, as I sit here looking at my ASF mailer, &#8220;What Went Wrong&#8221;, might be interest to at least superficially address in OKC this coming Tuesday evening.</p>
<p>How many IFR pilots file VFR altitudes?</p>
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		<title>By: g cenac</title>
		<link>http://blog.aopa.org/leadingedge/?p=370&#038;cpage=1#comment-25258</link>
		<dc:creator>g cenac</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 11 Sep 2009 19:47:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.aopa.org/asfblog/?p=370#comment-25258</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[The tulsa world stated that the pilot had filed ifr.  The faa has the pilot having a private ticket only; not instrument rated.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The tulsa world stated that the pilot had filed ifr.  The faa has the pilot having a private ticket only; not instrument rated.</p>
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