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	<title>Comments on: Interference from Row 9</title>
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	<link>http://blog.aopa.org/leadingedge/?p=2037</link>
	<description>A place to discuss safety-of-flight issues, procedures, techniques, and judgment.</description>
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		<title>By: Randall Henderson</title>
		<link>http://blog.aopa.org/leadingedge/?p=2037&#038;cpage=1#comment-47525</link>
		<dc:creator>Randall Henderson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 27 Jul 2012 20:52:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.aopa.org/asfblog/?p=2037#comment-47525</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[In my RV-6 I added an XM portable music receiver, plugged into my PM2000 intercom&#039;s music input. Immediately I noticed reception problems on my Garmin 396. I played around and it was very repeatable, and I could see all of the satellite bars drop by 25% to 50% with the XM music receiver on. The device was normally about 2 feet from the GPS antenna. If I separated them by 4 feet the effect went away. This is closer proximity than is likely between an airliner antenna and passenger seat, but still.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In my RV-6 I added an XM portable music receiver, plugged into my PM2000 intercom&#8217;s music input. Immediately I noticed reception problems on my Garmin 396. I played around and it was very repeatable, and I could see all of the satellite bars drop by 25% to 50% with the XM music receiver on. The device was normally about 2 feet from the GPS antenna. If I separated them by 4 feet the effect went away. This is closer proximity than is likely between an airliner antenna and passenger seat, but still.</p>
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		<title>By: Mark C</title>
		<link>http://blog.aopa.org/leadingedge/?p=2037&#038;cpage=1#comment-47489</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark C</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 26 Jul 2012 15:02:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.aopa.org/asfblog/?p=2037#comment-47489</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Joe Tannehill, thanks for the insight, that&#039;s interesting. It would have been useful if the flight crew in the CRJ had made note of the make, model, and service provider of the phone which caused the problem. With actual data engineers and others could possibly solve these issues and make everyone happy and safe. 

I have a story about how it can be useful to have a cell phone on in an airplane. I was on my night x-c during my Private training, which turned into the biggest circus I ever hope to be involved in in aviation. I was flying with an instructor I never met until 1/2 hour before the flight, in an unfamiliar aircraft, doing unfamiliar things. Due to poor communication between student and instructor, we had three flight plans filed, one for each leg of the x-c, and one round robin. When I called Flight Service and asked them to open my FP, they did as I asked and opened the FP for the outbound leg. I got so distracted by all the unfamiliar tasks including using flight following, that it never occurred to me to question the need to close that flight plan or open one for the return, or why we had also filed a round robin. As we flew the return leg, the fact that people could reach the CFI on his cell phone didn&#039;t prevent, but did limit and mitigate, the SAR response, and except for a great deal of embarrassment and a good butt chewing to a couple of pilots no one got in any trouble. Had they not called him, we&#039;d have been &quot;missing&quot; for a good half hour longer than we were.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Joe Tannehill, thanks for the insight, that&#8217;s interesting. It would have been useful if the flight crew in the CRJ had made note of the make, model, and service provider of the phone which caused the problem. With actual data engineers and others could possibly solve these issues and make everyone happy and safe. </p>
<p>I have a story about how it can be useful to have a cell phone on in an airplane. I was on my night x-c during my Private training, which turned into the biggest circus I ever hope to be involved in in aviation. I was flying with an instructor I never met until 1/2 hour before the flight, in an unfamiliar aircraft, doing unfamiliar things. Due to poor communication between student and instructor, we had three flight plans filed, one for each leg of the x-c, and one round robin. When I called Flight Service and asked them to open my FP, they did as I asked and opened the FP for the outbound leg. I got so distracted by all the unfamiliar tasks including using flight following, that it never occurred to me to question the need to close that flight plan or open one for the return, or why we had also filed a round robin. As we flew the return leg, the fact that people could reach the CFI on his cell phone didn&#8217;t prevent, but did limit and mitigate, the SAR response, and except for a great deal of embarrassment and a good butt chewing to a couple of pilots no one got in any trouble. Had they not called him, we&#8217;d have been &#8220;missing&#8221; for a good half hour longer than we were.</p>
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		<title>By: Frank</title>
		<link>http://blog.aopa.org/leadingedge/?p=2037&#038;cpage=1#comment-47397</link>
		<dc:creator>Frank</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 23 Jul 2012 19:56:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.aopa.org/asfblog/?p=2037#comment-47397</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I&#039;ve had a couple of instances where a GNS530W lost all satellites, then recovered as soon as all iPhones in the plane were switched to airplane mode. This happened in a PA-28 where the GPS antenna is only a foot or two from the phones in the cabin. 

As to Steve&#039;s point about the higher power levels from the towers: power levels for RF drop off with the square of the distance from the transmitter. Even if you fly right over a base station at say 200&#039; AGL, its signal has been attenuated 10,000 times more than the cell phone in the cockpit that&#039;s only 2&#039; from the GPS receiver. The base station is only 50 times more powerful (100 watt max vs 2 watt max for a handset) so the received signal is substantially less from the base station. 

The buzz from a GSM cellphone is due to the time division multiplexing scheme that turns the transmitter off and on 217 times a second. When operating at high power levels this creates large transient power draws on the battery and power subsystem that can generate significant interference in the audio band.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;ve had a couple of instances where a GNS530W lost all satellites, then recovered as soon as all iPhones in the plane were switched to airplane mode. This happened in a PA-28 where the GPS antenna is only a foot or two from the phones in the cabin. </p>
<p>As to Steve&#8217;s point about the higher power levels from the towers: power levels for RF drop off with the square of the distance from the transmitter. Even if you fly right over a base station at say 200&#8242; AGL, its signal has been attenuated 10,000 times more than the cell phone in the cockpit that&#8217;s only 2&#8242; from the GPS receiver. The base station is only 50 times more powerful (100 watt max vs 2 watt max for a handset) so the received signal is substantially less from the base station. </p>
<p>The buzz from a GSM cellphone is due to the time division multiplexing scheme that turns the transmitter off and on 217 times a second. When operating at high power levels this creates large transient power draws on the battery and power subsystem that can generate significant interference in the audio band.</p>
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		<title>By: Martin Sobel</title>
		<link>http://blog.aopa.org/leadingedge/?p=2037&#038;cpage=1#comment-47324</link>
		<dc:creator>Martin Sobel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 22 Jul 2012 01:47:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.aopa.org/asfblog/?p=2037#comment-47324</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I&#039;ve seen interference many years ago on a DC-9 flight between STL and CMH.

Can&#039;t remember the details, but it seemed at the time to be a device with limited range.

One reason to turn cell phones off in flight is that the battery runs town constantly searching for new towers.  

See you at AirVenture.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;ve seen interference many years ago on a DC-9 flight between STL and CMH.</p>
<p>Can&#8217;t remember the details, but it seemed at the time to be a device with limited range.</p>
<p>One reason to turn cell phones off in flight is that the battery runs town constantly searching for new towers.  </p>
<p>See you at AirVenture.</p>
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		<title>By: Joe Tannehill</title>
		<link>http://blog.aopa.org/leadingedge/?p=2037&#038;cpage=1#comment-47307</link>
		<dc:creator>Joe Tannehill</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 21 Jul 2012 17:29:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.aopa.org/asfblog/?p=2037#comment-47307</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I am an electromagnetic compatibility (EMC) engineer.  This is the discipline of testing and designing electronic devices to 1) Not cause interference, 2) Not be susceptible to interference.  Each industry has its own standards to comply with as well as the FCC requires it by law.  That means that the hand held devices must comply with FCC part 15 in the states and EN 55022 and EN 55024 outside of the US.  Aircraft meet RTCA DO-160.  I threw those in for reference.  That said electronic devices can be non-compliant through manufacturing issues, improper testing, or design.  Sometimes a mechanical shock (drop) can shift grounding or shielding devices that make them non compliant.  Further, there is possibility that even if all is correct there is no guarantee that it will not interfere.  It is just due diligence that we depend on.  The buzz - buzz - buzz that you hear is from the AM modulation scheme that is used in some (older CDMA) phones.  However what is happening is that the phone transmitter has found a cable or circuit that is resonant to that frequency and AM type modulation is heard in the audio circuits.  I used to use the old &#039;blender interfering with TV&#039; scenario to describe what I do. Now I use the buzz - buzz.  I tried to be brief but I could go on.  Bottom line is that by design it should not interfere, but it can under several circumstances.  Garmin, Apple, Dell, IBM....All test for this.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I am an electromagnetic compatibility (EMC) engineer.  This is the discipline of testing and designing electronic devices to 1) Not cause interference, 2) Not be susceptible to interference.  Each industry has its own standards to comply with as well as the FCC requires it by law.  That means that the hand held devices must comply with FCC part 15 in the states and EN 55022 and EN 55024 outside of the US.  Aircraft meet RTCA DO-160.  I threw those in for reference.  That said electronic devices can be non-compliant through manufacturing issues, improper testing, or design.  Sometimes a mechanical shock (drop) can shift grounding or shielding devices that make them non compliant.  Further, there is possibility that even if all is correct there is no guarantee that it will not interfere.  It is just due diligence that we depend on.  The buzz &#8211; buzz &#8211; buzz that you hear is from the AM modulation scheme that is used in some (older CDMA) phones.  However what is happening is that the phone transmitter has found a cable or circuit that is resonant to that frequency and AM type modulation is heard in the audio circuits.  I used to use the old &#8216;blender interfering with TV&#8217; scenario to describe what I do. Now I use the buzz &#8211; buzz.  I tried to be brief but I could go on.  Bottom line is that by design it should not interfere, but it can under several circumstances.  Garmin, Apple, Dell, IBM&#8230;.All test for this.</p>
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		<title>By: Bruce Landsberg</title>
		<link>http://blog.aopa.org/leadingedge/?p=2037&#038;cpage=1#comment-47301</link>
		<dc:creator>Bruce Landsberg</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 21 Jul 2012 13:00:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.aopa.org/asfblog/?p=2037#comment-47301</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Thank you all. I believe my last two paragraphs sums it up and for the time being, we would all be well served to ask passengers to secure cell phones particularly in IMC. 

Next generation of aircraft/avionics may resolve this and then we can all be connected all the time.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thank you all. I believe my last two paragraphs sums it up and for the time being, we would all be well served to ask passengers to secure cell phones particularly in IMC. </p>
<p>Next generation of aircraft/avionics may resolve this and then we can all be connected all the time.</p>
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		<title>By: Chas</title>
		<link>http://blog.aopa.org/leadingedge/?p=2037&#038;cpage=1#comment-47289</link>
		<dc:creator>Chas</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 21 Jul 2012 04:00:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.aopa.org/asfblog/?p=2037#comment-47289</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Three instances. 

One, and the most serious, occurred on short final at IAH in an MD-80 with the Wx at minimums. About the middle marker, the ILS CDI went ape with the CDI making major side to side excursions and causing the autopilot to disengage (coupled approach.) We initiated a go around. Probable cause was a cell phone activated in first class as witnessed by a flight attendant. After the cell phone was secured, the next approach was normal. 

Both of the other problems were at altitude, above the magic ten thousand feet point where electronic devices may be used. In both cases the suspected culprit was a video camera being used in mid cabin causing wild, full scale deflections of the VOR CDI. Fluctuations ceased after the video camera was turned off.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Three instances. </p>
<p>One, and the most serious, occurred on short final at IAH in an MD-80 with the Wx at minimums. About the middle marker, the ILS CDI went ape with the CDI making major side to side excursions and causing the autopilot to disengage (coupled approach.) We initiated a go around. Probable cause was a cell phone activated in first class as witnessed by a flight attendant. After the cell phone was secured, the next approach was normal. </p>
<p>Both of the other problems were at altitude, above the magic ten thousand feet point where electronic devices may be used. In both cases the suspected culprit was a video camera being used in mid cabin causing wild, full scale deflections of the VOR CDI. Fluctuations ceased after the video camera was turned off.</p>
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		<title>By: Steve.T</title>
		<link>http://blog.aopa.org/leadingedge/?p=2037&#038;cpage=1#comment-47283</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve.T</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 21 Jul 2012 00:05:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.aopa.org/asfblog/?p=2037#comment-47283</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I have a few questions (I used to work with commercial radio systems):

When we drop to about 3000 AGL in urban areas we get a lot of signal from the cell towers (and they xmit more power than a cell phone). So why wouldn&#039;t this issue be seen during approaches even without a cell phone being left on inside the plane?

This makes me wonder if this isn&#039;t related to BlueTooth operations. It also has me wondering about processor clocking that is being transmitted when data needs to be processes into text (or something similar). Is this an intermediate freq Stage 1 problem (where a receiver transmits -- this is the basis of how radar detector detectors work)? 

It would be interesting to run tests for these things to find out what is really happening.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have a few questions (I used to work with commercial radio systems):</p>
<p>When we drop to about 3000 AGL in urban areas we get a lot of signal from the cell towers (and they xmit more power than a cell phone). So why wouldn&#8217;t this issue be seen during approaches even without a cell phone being left on inside the plane?</p>
<p>This makes me wonder if this isn&#8217;t related to BlueTooth operations. It also has me wondering about processor clocking that is being transmitted when data needs to be processes into text (or something similar). Is this an intermediate freq Stage 1 problem (where a receiver transmits &#8212; this is the basis of how radar detector detectors work)? </p>
<p>It would be interesting to run tests for these things to find out what is really happening.</p>
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		<title>By: Bonanza Babe</title>
		<link>http://blog.aopa.org/leadingedge/?p=2037&#038;cpage=1#comment-47276</link>
		<dc:creator>Bonanza Babe</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 20 Jul 2012 18:01:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.aopa.org/asfblog/?p=2037#comment-47276</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&quot;Has anybody else had a problem with electronic device interference?&quot;...

The only interference I&#039;ve noticed was once when my former flight instructor decided to answer a call when I was practicing eights on pylons for my commercial...
Note, I used the word &quot;former&quot; flight instructor...]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Has anybody else had a problem with electronic device interference?&#8221;&#8230;</p>
<p>The only interference I&#8217;ve noticed was once when my former flight instructor decided to answer a call when I was practicing eights on pylons for my commercial&#8230;<br />
Note, I used the word &#8220;former&#8221; flight instructor&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Andy Young</title>
		<link>http://blog.aopa.org/leadingedge/?p=2037&#038;cpage=1#comment-47273</link>
		<dc:creator>Andy Young</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 20 Jul 2012 16:50:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.aopa.org/asfblog/?p=2037#comment-47273</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I have had the same experiences as Fred (above) I fly for a 135 air taxi in Alaska.  There is no cell service near our base, but when flying to areas that have service, we often get the annoying buzzing as we get close, as soon as any phone left on starts picking up a signal and recieving messages/texts that have been backing up while the phone owners were in the backcountry.  Invariably, the offending phone is buried in the baggage area, and cannot be accessed until we land.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have had the same experiences as Fred (above) I fly for a 135 air taxi in Alaska.  There is no cell service near our base, but when flying to areas that have service, we often get the annoying buzzing as we get close, as soon as any phone left on starts picking up a signal and recieving messages/texts that have been backing up while the phone owners were in the backcountry.  Invariably, the offending phone is buried in the baggage area, and cannot be accessed until we land.</p>
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