Comments on: Flight controls and passengers

By: Mike Stinnett`

Mike Stinnett` — Fri, 30 Nov 2012 22:24:48 +0000

Avi Weiss, under FAR Pt.91, there is no FAR prohibiting a non rated passenger from manipulating the controls even with a non-CFI as the PIC. It’s perfectly legal for a private pilot to allow a non-pilot to fly the aircraft. It doesn’t qualify as “illegal instruction”

By: John

John — Fri, 30 Nov 2012 15:41:19 +0000

I agree with earlier posts that the NTSB is stretching the limits of what they could actually determine. Their scenario is plausible but they should emphasize that nothing conclusive could be determined. That said I would say that the pilot was bowing to the wishes of the owner by letting the girl sit up front even though he knew it was against the regulations and against good safety practices. Flying for private owners can be very rewarding but you have to know how to gently assert yourself as PIC while at the same time allowing the owner to enjoy his aircraft. It is a very careful balancing act.

By: Bill

Bill — Wed, 28 Nov 2012 18:54:32 +0000

I am a military helo pilot who does not have civilian passengers in the front seat. From my 3,000 hour experience (even if I were not in a military aircraft), I WOULD NEVER allow 2 people to occupy the same seat in the cockpit where dual controls exist. My take on the NTSB final report was that proper cockpit discipline from the pilot (allowing the child to sit on the lap on a person in the left seat) was a contributing and possibly main factor. That is where the pilot was to blame for the accident. The NTSB does not say that the pilot suddenly and inadvertently manipulated the controls, which caused the rotor blade to contact the tail rotor drive shaft. Just like others have stated, the child could have inadvertently stepped on the collective and with the sudden drop in altitude the child or passenger, out of reaction, grabbed for the cyclic and pulled it aft. The pilot was unable to counter the quick control movements and the chain of event continued to unfold.
I do not see a problem with riders occupying the left seat with dual controls. As Daniel stated, the pilot has to know his crew/passengers and ensure he/she guards the controls during every evolution at all times.

By: ahp

ahp — Sat, 24 Nov 2012 04:20:34 +0000

If you are going to post please be informed. The EC135 rotor system is such that mast bumping isn’t an issue.

By: Daniel L. Lieberman

Daniel L. Lieberman — Fri, 23 Nov 2012 17:01:28 +0000

This is pilot error. His hand should be on the collective at all times and he should know how to recover from a low g pushover – gradually not rapidly. I agree that his failure to recover properly was secondary to his failure to remove the controls if he was a current CFI or his failure to require the 5 year old to be in a rear seat.

This was mast bumping and should not have occured even with the low g pushover.

By: RCL

RCL — Fri, 23 Nov 2012 14:15:13 +0000

I concur with Tom assertion, there is no way such a high time pilot would have made such a “rookie/novice” error.

The NTSB missed it on this one.

I would suggest that the child may have slipped and in an attemp to regain balance grabbed the cyclic, perhaps after slipping ( with her foot) off the collective.

Bad news…..kids should never be up front and never on someone’s lap.

By: Paul

Paul — Fri, 23 Nov 2012 14:05:48 +0000

I agree with Tom, but I have another thought on this and like to believe the NTSB would look at this case again. The article stated that the owner was not a rated helicopter pilot, so we really don’t know his level of training/competence in helicopters. Lets entertain the idea, just for a minute, that the child did step on the collective sending it to the downstop. For a helicopter pilot this is not a big deal. Gently slow up and bring the collective back in. When the child stepped on the collective and the helicopter started to decend I think it was more possible that the owner grabbed the cyclic and pulled full aft which is the recovery method for a decending AIRPLANE. We all know that this does not work in a helicopter. He possibly locked up on the controls so that the rated pilot could not move them. The owner was a rated airplane pilot and recovery techniques are NOT the same.

By: Stan Lee

Stan Lee — Fri, 23 Nov 2012 13:48:25 +0000

I agree with Tom , seemssomeone wanted to close the file

By: Tom

Tom — Thu, 22 Nov 2012 08:21:44 +0000

This report is really a stretch, IMO. Why would the pilot pull full aft cyclic simply because he was raising an accidentally lowered collective?? The NTSB is reaching on this one. I’m surprised they didn’t blame the child for the full aft cyclic pull.
The ship was consumed by fire so the phrase “no anomolies were found” is key here. The NTSB could have overlooked something or more likely, the cause of the wreck was destroyed in the fire.
Blaming the accident on a child lowering the collective and the pilot for then raising the collective to full up position while he also pulled full travel aft cyclic is bull feathers. This was a 10,000 plus hour heli pilot and they were flying at 2,000 agl.
Baloney on this report is what i say.

By: Jim Borger

Jim Borger — Tue, 20 Nov 2012 22:49:48 +0000

Think about this. Almost every airplane out there has duals installed with non-pilot passengers regularly sitting in the co-pilot seat. How many of them crash because of passengers interfering with the controls? I have thousands of hours in both rotory and fixed wing with non-pilots occupying a seat with controls. I throughly brief them before cranking up and never have a problem. The only problem I have ever had was in a BO-105 with the duals removed. I had a full load and was in cruise flight when the collective suddenly dropped halfway down and moderate up pressure had no effect. I slowed to Vy and was slowly losing altitude so I slowly increased up pressure on the collective with no effect. I looked down to see if something was blocking the control and saw a large foot planted in the middle of the collective. One of the backseat passengers had decided he wanted to put his foot up and the collective looked like a good place to him. I got his attention by smacking his shin and the problem was solved.