Comments on: How realistic should impossible turn practice be?

By: Tom

Tom — Wed, 15 Jun 2011 16:18:15 +0000

I have been a pilot for eleven years and a paramedic for 37 years. One thing is for sure. do what the experts say and land it as slow and controlled as possible – even if that is into the trees. If you stall and spin it (even into flat land) the emergency workers will have nothing to do but determine that you are dead. If you think about what you are going to do before you take off you will be in a much better position to determine if you should make the turn back or not. Practice beforehand and you will have a better grip on what is possible and what is not.

By: martin

martin — Tue, 14 Jun 2011 18:11:37 +0000

ref Russell’s comment. the impossible turn may not get you back to the runway, but getting back to the airport environment for your forced landing can be a big plus.
In my opinion.

By: Russell

Russell — Mon, 13 Jun 2011 01:33:10 +0000

I had an actual total engine failure at 500′ and flaps 30 in a cessna 210 I had just started a left crosswind turn into the wind so the decision to turn or not had already been made. I contiued the turn as I established a speed slightly over best glide and declared a Mayday. I found myself too high to make the landing on the runway I just left and too low to make it all the way back around to the other end. I decided that I did not need a runway to land on or to survive a controlled return to the ground. There was over 200 acres of clear property with runways on it and I was confident that I could find a spot there somewhere to not hit anything so I actually drifted wide of the runway so as to give me room to desent and turn into the runway enviornment at a 90 degree heading to the departure runway. As I continued inbound I quickly lost all excess altitude in an exchange for excess airspeed (the 210 drops like a rock from 500′) I leveled out at six inches off the ground and held that altitude exactly untill the airplane actually stalled and dropped onto the ground and rolled up onto the sholder and then onto the middle of the runway and stopped. This was not practiced this is not hypothetical this is what happened. The only thing I can say for sure is that there are many many runways that there is no place to land straight ahead or even slightly left or right….But every runway in the world has an airport and a runway right behind you when you leave and to say they are off limit no matter what is just plain silly…

By: josh

josh — Sat, 11 Jun 2011 17:01:25 +0000

The ideal glide speed for this maneuver has not been properly identified. Everyone is talking about the best glide speed. The “best glide speed” number for every aircraft is the speed (at gross weight) that gives you the greatest gliding distance. There is another speed, somewhat less, that actually gives you a slower rate of descent and consequently more time to complete your turn or figure out what you want to do. There was an article on this several years ago but I don’t remember which Magazine it was in. It is easly to verify. Set up your best glide at idle power and look at the VSI. Then trim further nose up and compare the descent rate. In my aircraft (and as that author suggested most aircraft), the slowest descent is with the trim wheel set at or nearly at full nose up.

By: Paul Miko

Paul Miko — Sat, 11 Jun 2011 15:19:06 +0000

There is one very important issue that is not mentioned thus far. Will there be enough runway to land and stop after a turn back? If the takeoff was conducted into a strong headwind the answer is absolutely not. I practiced this maneuver several times on a 7000 ft runway, of which only 4000 ft were open and the remainder was an overrun/taxi area. I took off using the 4000 ft portion, simulated an engine failure at various altitudes and returned for a landing. The return was never an issue, stopping on the first 4000 ft of runway always was. Most times when I reached the “end” of the runway I was still going about 40-50 knots (ground speed). A lot of this was due to a 20 knot tail wind. Notice even with the now famous Mooney video, he only stops and gets off at the last taxiway. I am betting there was little to no wind that day. For more information, look up “cone of authority.”
In many cases, the risk of running off the end of the runway going 40-50 still outweighs crashing in the woods, but this factor has to be included in every takeoff briefing. Thereby every takeoff must include a briefing.

By: Scott Voichoskie

Scott Voichoskie — Sat, 11 Jun 2011 13:00:14 +0000

What is not mentioned here is that most of the time you are taking off into the wind or with a crosswind.

As you turn back toward the runway environment you are now being pushed further down the runway and may have to make a mid-field landing or land with over-run and you are making a downwind landing at that. Remember, making a downwind landing has all the same characteristics of making a landing on a high density altitude day. And depending on which way you chose, you may have turned into the crosswind or may have turned away from it. All of these things will change the power management.

So, I would be curious to know when they started their “flare” maneuver, where were they in relationship to their “take-off” point. I think this may have a factor in your decision making. As the wind is pushing you, and you are watching the ground speed under you even faster, you may get a bit nervous and over control the airplane trying to make the runway. And the closer to the ground you are the more exaggerated your senses are to your relative speed. This over controlling may be the precise problem with the “impossible turn”. Once you start over controlling the aircraft that affects the power management. And the worst case scenario that results from bad power management is a low altitude stall.

Thank you for the report. I am not saying it is wrong. And I will certainly try this with my students. I am just saying there might be some other things to consider.

By: Roy haggard

Roy haggard — Sat, 11 Jun 2011 04:36:33 +0000

1. Spending time in glider is invaluable. After a few hundred hours in gliders, losing the engine is less concerning, but even a little time gets the point across.
2. Aerobatics and mandatory for anyone who is interested in becoming a proficient pilot. Especially spending lots of time right on the edge of a stall in all flight modes with emphasis on gliding flight in a turn. This includes spins, spin entries and aborted spin entries.
3. With the proper experience and confidence, a pilot will likely make the right decision when choosing where to set down when the engine fails at an inopportune moment….

As one of the Mike stated previously, “Fly the Airplane!”

The minimum altitude will be used when flying as slow as possible in th lowest drag confiurgation. If there is isn’t enough altitude to complete the turn then on has to level wings flair and land in the best possible manner. That is, threading the needle amongst the obstacles, if that is what is required… Remaining cognizant that this could happen is paramount. The odds of it happening is slight, but considering it on every landing approach is preparation for if and when it may happen…

Roy

By: Rob duran

Rob duran — Sat, 11 Jun 2011 04:04:54 +0000

If you want to make it more real, do yourselves a favor. take some one with for some touch and goes and have them pull the mixture lean and cut the engine at 600 feet unexpectedly. I dont want to hear about about what someone did in a flight simulator. I dont want to hear about practicing at flight levels in class A airspace. Do you people even realize the true difference between the thrust created at idle, versus the drag created by a windmilling prop? Do you have a basic understanding of what happens aerodynamically when your climbing uphill and thrust turns to drag, and gravity snatches you from the air? How fast will that airspeed bleed off? how much altitude are you going to lose in preventing stalls. Now, you have to increase your bank and stall speed too by the way. It increases to just under best glide speed. you cannot pull yourself through the turn without reaching critical AOA. So you have to accept the increased vertical descent rate such a bank angle produces. I have seen what happens when this happens for real. Let us do the dead a favor and think about what we are advising people to do here. Everyone seems to be advocating practice on computer games and in situations that are nothing like the real thing. And then you have the nerve to claim to be able to complete this in 400 feet under conditions that are nothing like the real thing? Didnt you people ever read the full story on AOPA? The guy landed with partial power. It was not the impossible turn, it was nursing an aircraft still developing power back to the runway. So, if you want to make it real as possible…dont talk about it…be about it. Man up and practice what you preach before you allow your opinions based on video games to be read by student pilots who may call about your guidance when they have their own emergency. And the impossible turn may seem possible until it happens. And we lose another fellow aviator to blind hope. Sad fact. We as pilots arent very inventive. We dont think up new and exciting ways to kill ourselves and bend airplanes, we stick with what works. dont believe me? Ask the ntsb. The bloody pages speak for themselves on the impossible turn. Which do you believe, random 1s and 0s in computer code written for a flight sim, or A B O + -??? Those who dont learn from history are doomed to repeat it…so they say. Dont agree with me? Fine. but know this. I have more time mixture lean engine off prop windmilling coming into the airport simulated emergency landing….than you do. I guarantee it. The impossible turn is just that.

By: Jack Hunt

Jack Hunt — Sat, 11 Jun 2011 00:36:13 +0000

In the impossible no one has mentioned what I was taught as a glider pilot on a rope break behind a tow aircraft at 200 feet. One make the turn into the wind as this will help get you back to the airport. Two as you are simulating this establish your glide speed as rapidly as possible and remember as you start the 45 degree bank you’ll going to have to push the nose down to keep the airspeed…

By: Bill Hannahan

Bill Hannahan — Fri, 10 Jun 2011 21:57:47 +0000

The instructor counts to 5 in 3.5 seconds.

At idle the engine is still burning 3 gph, making heat, and therefore less drag than a truly dead engine. To simulate a truly dead engine pull the mixture.

A dead engine that is rotating freely will make less drag with the throttle wide open.

I think this video is misleading and likely to hurt more people than it saves. I suggest you do a somewhat more realistic video as follows.

1… Pick a day with no wind.
2… Load the aircraft to near max gross.
3… On takeoff the instructor notes the point where the plane lifts off and the indicated airspeed.
4… Climb to 3,500 feet and use a high quality GPS with WAAS correction to fly directly over the runway centerline in takeoff configuration, at liftoff speed.
5… When the plane is directly over the liftoff point the instructor announces liftoff and goes to full throttle.
6… The pilot gradually accelerates to climb speed without sinking back to 3,500 feet.
7… At 4,000 feet the instructor pulls the mixture to cutoff and closes the throttle for worst case prop drag.
8… After 5 seconds the turn back is performed and the pilot maneuvers over the centerline in the reverse direction; the GPS should be set to a short range for high resolution.
9… To simulate a short runway the pilot is required to fly down the centerline to 3,000 feet from where the takeoff roll started.
10… The altitude is noted at that point to calculate the loss.

Some people will say this is dangerous because the engine may not restart. I ask them to describe the exact mechanism that could prevent the engine from starting and estimate the probability. I claim that fouling the plugs with the mixture in is as likely. A failure to start would leave the plane 3,000 feet over an airport with a CFI aboard, the risk should be minimal.

This video may influence hundreds of pilots for better or worse. You owe it to them to make it as realistic as possible.