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	<title>Comments on: Will no-lead avgas cost $10 a gallon?</title>
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	<link>http://blog.aopa.org/blog/?p=1350</link>
	<description>Online perspective from the editors of "AOPA Pilot".</description>
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		<title>By: John Ringel</title>
		<link>http://blog.aopa.org/blog/?p=1350&#038;cpage=1#comment-142555</link>
		<dc:creator>John Ringel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 16 Apr 2012 17:18:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.aopa.org/blog/?p=1350#comment-142555</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I spent at least 45 minutes reading this blog. I come away with the following observations. 100 LL is but a very small percentage of fuels produced and used. The engines of aircraft needing 100LL to run properly should not be at the whim of environmentalist idea of their perfect world. 100 LL is a vast improvement in leaded fuels of he past. Obviously the EPA and some blowhard environmentalists want  the world to change for the better, but is it really changing for the better? Just because 100LL has a small amount of lead, is it really unhealthy? Lead is a naturally ocurring element. Are we better off in 2012 versus say 1965? That answer is yes. I say leave 100LL alone. If these environmentalist want a cleaner fuel, make them pay of its developement. IMHO, we have a guy who would love nothing more than have the entire industry switch to diesel engines (no conflict there). Granted, jet A/ diesel is a viable alternative, but at what cost? I have an engine that requires 100LL to run properly. The engine has another 900 hours before TBO. When it comes time for TBO, I will consider a switch to diesel, but not right now. Don&#039;t get me wrong on this. I am not against a change in 100LL as long as the alternative doesn&#039;t cause a financial burden on those who have engines requiring 100LL.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I spent at least 45 minutes reading this blog. I come away with the following observations. 100 LL is but a very small percentage of fuels produced and used. The engines of aircraft needing 100LL to run properly should not be at the whim of environmentalist idea of their perfect world. 100 LL is a vast improvement in leaded fuels of he past. Obviously the EPA and some blowhard environmentalists want  the world to change for the better, but is it really changing for the better? Just because 100LL has a small amount of lead, is it really unhealthy? Lead is a naturally ocurring element. Are we better off in 2012 versus say 1965? That answer is yes. I say leave 100LL alone. If these environmentalist want a cleaner fuel, make them pay of its developement. IMHO, we have a guy who would love nothing more than have the entire industry switch to diesel engines (no conflict there). Granted, jet A/ diesel is a viable alternative, but at what cost? I have an engine that requires 100LL to run properly. The engine has another 900 hours before TBO. When it comes time for TBO, I will consider a switch to diesel, but not right now. Don&#8217;t get me wrong on this. I am not against a change in 100LL as long as the alternative doesn&#8217;t cause a financial burden on those who have engines requiring 100LL.</p>
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		<title>By: Will Alibrandi</title>
		<link>http://blog.aopa.org/blog/?p=1350&#038;cpage=1#comment-96811</link>
		<dc:creator>Will Alibrandi</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 25 Aug 2010 16:25:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.aopa.org/blog/?p=1350#comment-96811</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Wayne, are you referring to Sunoco 260? There&#039;s no guarantee that fuel could be certified under ASTM 910 and right now it&#039;s retail price here is $9/gallon.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Wayne, are you referring to Sunoco 260? There&#8217;s no guarantee that fuel could be certified under ASTM 910 and right now it&#8217;s retail price here is $9/gallon.</p>
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		<title>By: Wayne Shaw</title>
		<link>http://blog.aopa.org/blog/?p=1350&#038;cpage=1#comment-96808</link>
		<dc:creator>Wayne Shaw</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 25 Aug 2010 04:34:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.aopa.org/blog/?p=1350#comment-96808</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I have been reading comments and publications about Avgas and getting the lead out for quite a while now and am very curious why this is an issue.  I retired from a major oil company and at least two seperate companies made and still make 100 octane and greater than 100 octane racing gas that doesn&#039;t contain ethanol either.  If no lead is added and no ethanol added it can safely transported through any pipeline and transportation costs are less so it is obvious that the unleaded gas can be made and the engines run better and cleaner than with lead additive.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have been reading comments and publications about Avgas and getting the lead out for quite a while now and am very curious why this is an issue.  I retired from a major oil company and at least two seperate companies made and still make 100 octane and greater than 100 octane racing gas that doesn&#8217;t contain ethanol either.  If no lead is added and no ethanol added it can safely transported through any pipeline and transportation costs are less so it is obvious that the unleaded gas can be made and the engines run better and cleaner than with lead additive.</p>
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		<title>By: Alex Kovnat</title>
		<link>http://blog.aopa.org/blog/?p=1350&#038;cpage=1#comment-96801</link>
		<dc:creator>Alex Kovnat</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 24 Aug 2010 18:30:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.aopa.org/blog/?p=1350#comment-96801</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Fred, why are you shouting? The acoustics in this chat room are excellent. We can hear you without typing in all capital letters.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Fred, why are you shouting? The acoustics in this chat room are excellent. We can hear you without typing in all capital letters.</p>
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		<title>By: FRED LONG</title>
		<link>http://blog.aopa.org/blog/?p=1350&#038;cpage=1#comment-96800</link>
		<dc:creator>FRED LONG</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 24 Aug 2010 18:04:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.aopa.org/blog/?p=1350#comment-96800</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[This would be to low wing owners. 
Subject: fuel volitility
As we all know, yet i have not seen it adressed in any of the letters thus far, avgas has a low volatility in order to not boil at high temperatures as well as lower atmospheric pressure or a combination of both. 
This boiling will cause what is known as vapor lock. Older cars that pulled the fuel from a gas tank low in the rear of the car to an engine driven fuel pump would sometimes vapor lock especially on a hot day at higher altitude. Pulling the fuel drew a partial vacuum and the heat lowered even further the boiling point; thus a vapor lock. I had a lot of experience with this growing up in the high desert country. This is the reason new car manufacturers solved this with electric fuel pumps in the fuel tank. Note this great breakthru was actually copied from older gasoline powered high flying aircraft.
When my old cherokee 140 was built (1966) i guess everyone thought that avgas woulde be around forever.
They have an engine driven fuel pump and on the firewall there is an electric pump pulling the fuel from each of the two wing tanks. In summary with a hot and high situation one could have vapor lock. 
I have researched the stc to burn mogas in my plane and the stc calls for the follwoing: if i have the standard pistons in the o-320 engine (150 hp) i only have to buy the stc and begin flying with mogas. If i have the higher compression pistons (160 hp), i must purchase from the stc holder, two electric fuel pumps each to be mounted near each wing tank and seperate new fuel piping as well as new electric controls to control each pump etc. 
This is due to the faa tests showing that the fuel vapor locked on the 160 hp version.
Many car gas producers make winter blends of fuel and it finds its way into the summer market or into the hot areas of the country. So i bought a volatility meter in order to learn more. 
I am an api tank inspector in the tropics, and one of my functions is to inspect floating roof&#039;s seals and note evaproative losses from large gasoline tanks. I have seen 150 ft dia steel floating roofs lifting up with vapor belching out intermittantly from under the liquid immersed rim seals.

In summary the vapor pressure of a highly volitile fuel was doing this. My little volitility meter confirmed this. 
Next i went to most of the different brand gasoline stations and found an alarming number with volitile fuel.
Next i took some of this volitile fuel, placed it in a can and set it near my airplane on the morning of a good hot day. By that afternoon measured temp. Was near 120f the volitility was unreal. The avgas in my wing tanks was 124f but the volitility was acceptable
My concern now is that. How safe will i be if i totally trust the faa testing of the 150 hp 0-320. Buy the stc, then fill er up with mo gas, leave her sit in the good old hot tropical sun (directly overhead at noon now), take off and try to hop over a 9,000 ft cloud. 
With avgas i am able to do this routinely. If i were to switch to mo gas i would check very carefully the volitility. 
In summary to this i would say for the little engines like mine i would be happy with 91 or 100 ul - with proper volitility. As well to anyone planning to switch to mogas; buy a volitility meter and use it.
]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This would be to low wing owners.<br />
Subject: fuel volitility<br />
As we all know, yet i have not seen it adressed in any of the letters thus far, avgas has a low volatility in order to not boil at high temperatures as well as lower atmospheric pressure or a combination of both.<br />
This boiling will cause what is known as vapor lock. Older cars that pulled the fuel from a gas tank low in the rear of the car to an engine driven fuel pump would sometimes vapor lock especially on a hot day at higher altitude. Pulling the fuel drew a partial vacuum and the heat lowered even further the boiling point; thus a vapor lock. I had a lot of experience with this growing up in the high desert country. This is the reason new car manufacturers solved this with electric fuel pumps in the fuel tank. Note this great breakthru was actually copied from older gasoline powered high flying aircraft.<br />
When my old cherokee 140 was built (1966) i guess everyone thought that avgas woulde be around forever.<br />
They have an engine driven fuel pump and on the firewall there is an electric pump pulling the fuel from each of the two wing tanks. In summary with a hot and high situation one could have vapor lock.<br />
I have researched the stc to burn mogas in my plane and the stc calls for the follwoing: if i have the standard pistons in the o-320 engine (150 hp) i only have to buy the stc and begin flying with mogas. If i have the higher compression pistons (160 hp), i must purchase from the stc holder, two electric fuel pumps each to be mounted near each wing tank and seperate new fuel piping as well as new electric controls to control each pump etc.<br />
This is due to the faa tests showing that the fuel vapor locked on the 160 hp version.<br />
Many car gas producers make winter blends of fuel and it finds its way into the summer market or into the hot areas of the country. So i bought a volatility meter in order to learn more.<br />
I am an api tank inspector in the tropics, and one of my functions is to inspect floating roof&#8217;s seals and note evaproative losses from large gasoline tanks. I have seen 150 ft dia steel floating roofs lifting up with vapor belching out intermittantly from under the liquid immersed rim seals.</p>
<p>In summary the vapor pressure of a highly volitile fuel was doing this. My little volitility meter confirmed this.<br />
Next i went to most of the different brand gasoline stations and found an alarming number with volitile fuel.<br />
Next i took some of this volitile fuel, placed it in a can and set it near my airplane on the morning of a good hot day. By that afternoon measured temp. Was near 120f the volitility was unreal. The avgas in my wing tanks was 124f but the volitility was acceptable<br />
My concern now is that. How safe will i be if i totally trust the faa testing of the 150 hp 0-320. Buy the stc, then fill er up with mo gas, leave her sit in the good old hot tropical sun (directly overhead at noon now), take off and try to hop over a 9,000 ft cloud.<br />
With avgas i am able to do this routinely. If i were to switch to mo gas i would check very carefully the volitility.<br />
In summary to this i would say for the little engines like mine i would be happy with 91 or 100 ul &#8211; with proper volitility. As well to anyone planning to switch to mogas; buy a volitility meter and use it.</p>
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		<title>By: Alex Kovnat</title>
		<link>http://blog.aopa.org/blog/?p=1350&#038;cpage=1#comment-96797</link>
		<dc:creator>Alex Kovnat</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 24 Aug 2010 15:15:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.aopa.org/blog/?p=1350#comment-96797</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Yesterday (Monday August 23) I started reading the September 2010 edition of Flying magazine. In this latest issue, one sees evidence of the possible phase-out of 100LL in the not to distant future. For example there&#039;s an article on the Cirrus SR22T, whose engine has a lower compression ratio than what Cirrus previously would have used for such an aircraft. This results in somewhat higher specific fuel consumption. But the current SR22T also has increased detonation margin, which enables the owner-pilot to use 94UL fuel. 

A noteworthy example of how one owner-pilot is adapting to possible phase-out of 100LL:  On pages 76 and 77 of said edition of Flying, we read about a guy who uses his Cessna Citation jet to fly clients to and from locations where advertisements are filmed. Here&#039;s how he&#039;s coping with the whole matter of decreasing 100LL availability, possibly having to settle for 94UL, the possible high cost of lead-free 100 octane gas, et cetera: The aircraft he flies just for fun, a Marchetti SF.260TP, is one of only seven privately owned SF.260&#039;s that have been converted to TURBOPROP POWER!

Expensive? Yes, but we&#039;ll probably see more sportplanes of that kind in the foreseeable future.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yesterday (Monday August 23) I started reading the September 2010 edition of Flying magazine. In this latest issue, one sees evidence of the possible phase-out of 100LL in the not to distant future. For example there&#8217;s an article on the Cirrus SR22T, whose engine has a lower compression ratio than what Cirrus previously would have used for such an aircraft. This results in somewhat higher specific fuel consumption. But the current SR22T also has increased detonation margin, which enables the owner-pilot to use 94UL fuel. </p>
<p>A noteworthy example of how one owner-pilot is adapting to possible phase-out of 100LL:  On pages 76 and 77 of said edition of Flying, we read about a guy who uses his Cessna Citation jet to fly clients to and from locations where advertisements are filmed. Here&#8217;s how he&#8217;s coping with the whole matter of decreasing 100LL availability, possibly having to settle for 94UL, the possible high cost of lead-free 100 octane gas, et cetera: The aircraft he flies just for fun, a Marchetti SF.260TP, is one of only seven privately owned SF.260&#8242;s that have been converted to TURBOPROP POWER!</p>
<p>Expensive? Yes, but we&#8217;ll probably see more sportplanes of that kind in the foreseeable future.</p>
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		<title>By: Andre Teissier-duCros</title>
		<link>http://blog.aopa.org/blog/?p=1350&#038;cpage=1#comment-96796</link>
		<dc:creator>Andre Teissier-duCros</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 24 Aug 2010 14:15:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.aopa.org/blog/?p=1350#comment-96796</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Alex, thanks for mentioning JP8. I agree that one cannot use it for existing spark ignition engines.
Remark on the $6/gallon figure: In all our exchange we have indifferently talked of it as benchmark for either a COST or a PRICE. Our forecast exercise was talking of a retail PRICE therefore a comprehensive cost (ingredients, energy, shipment, storage...) and then a markup or margin on top. All private pilots know that 100LL is sold at a high margin, witness the high price differences one can observe from one airfield to another. By the time a lead free Avgas is marketed I expect the Avgas market to have shrunk, therefore the markup to have gone further  up. Ex: You can still buy fluid for your Zippo lighter (I have one) because there are still a few smokers using a Zippo. Zippo fluid is a very light gasoline. It sells at $200/gallon , only you buy it in four-Oz containers.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Alex, thanks for mentioning JP8. I agree that one cannot use it for existing spark ignition engines.<br />
Remark on the $6/gallon figure: In all our exchange we have indifferently talked of it as benchmark for either a COST or a PRICE. Our forecast exercise was talking of a retail PRICE therefore a comprehensive cost (ingredients, energy, shipment, storage&#8230;) and then a markup or margin on top. All private pilots know that 100LL is sold at a high margin, witness the high price differences one can observe from one airfield to another. By the time a lead free Avgas is marketed I expect the Avgas market to have shrunk, therefore the markup to have gone further  up. Ex: You can still buy fluid for your Zippo lighter (I have one) because there are still a few smokers using a Zippo. Zippo fluid is a very light gasoline. It sells at $200/gallon , only you buy it in four-Oz containers.</p>
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		<title>By: Alex Kovnat</title>
		<link>http://blog.aopa.org/blog/?p=1350&#038;cpage=1#comment-96794</link>
		<dc:creator>Alex Kovnat</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 24 Aug 2010 12:58:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.aopa.org/blog/?p=1350#comment-96794</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Andre (AOPA #01314249) asks:

&gt;&gt;Also, if US. DOD does succeed in having one single fuel for all engines on military aircraft and vehicles, do you think that single fuel will be a new kind of gasoline, or simply jetfuel (partial bio-jetfuel later) already available everywhere and fueling all the big Lockheed-Grumman-Boeing toys?

There is such a fuel, called JP-8. Its use is required for Army ground vehicles (which are nowadays all Diesel) as well as turbine-powered vehicles (nowadays only the M1 series Abrams main battle tank powered by an AGT-1500 gas turbine engine) and of course, helicopters (i.e. Blackhawk, Chinook, etc) which are turbine-powered. In combat theaters, JP-8 is also used for jet and turboprop aircraft.

In general aviation, JP-8  could be used in Diesel engines or turboprop engines, if said engines are FAA-certified for said fuel. I don&#039;t think JP-8 would be usable in spark-ignited aircraft engines. 

Mettatal Airport in Canton Township, Michigan, home of EAA Chapter 113, is not far from a railroad main line. I&#039;ve been there numerous times for Chapter 113 pancake breakfasts. People I&#039;ve met there agree its silly that those living near that airport complain about aircraft noise, but not about railroad trains which have to blow their air horns constantly to let everyone know they&#039;re coming. 

Given the high cost of &quot;botique&quot; avgas, including both 100LL and the forthcoming 100 octane lead-free formulations, I have often wished a railroad track would be built, branching off the nearby main line, to enable railroad tank cars to be delivered to Mettatal Airport so as to reduce aviation fuel transportation costs. That might lower the cost of avgas at that particular airport to less than $10.00/gallon, or whatever price is forecast for the next few years. Of course one also has to consider the many other small airports which are part of our nation&#039;s general aviation system.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Andre (AOPA #01314249) asks:</p>
<p>&gt;&gt;Also, if US. DOD does succeed in having one single fuel for all engines on military aircraft and vehicles, do you think that single fuel will be a new kind of gasoline, or simply jetfuel (partial bio-jetfuel later) already available everywhere and fueling all the big Lockheed-Grumman-Boeing toys?</p>
<p>There is such a fuel, called JP-8. Its use is required for Army ground vehicles (which are nowadays all Diesel) as well as turbine-powered vehicles (nowadays only the M1 series Abrams main battle tank powered by an AGT-1500 gas turbine engine) and of course, helicopters (i.e. Blackhawk, Chinook, etc) which are turbine-powered. In combat theaters, JP-8 is also used for jet and turboprop aircraft.</p>
<p>In general aviation, JP-8  could be used in Diesel engines or turboprop engines, if said engines are FAA-certified for said fuel. I don&#8217;t think JP-8 would be usable in spark-ignited aircraft engines. </p>
<p>Mettatal Airport in Canton Township, Michigan, home of EAA Chapter 113, is not far from a railroad main line. I&#8217;ve been there numerous times for Chapter 113 pancake breakfasts. People I&#8217;ve met there agree its silly that those living near that airport complain about aircraft noise, but not about railroad trains which have to blow their air horns constantly to let everyone know they&#8217;re coming. </p>
<p>Given the high cost of &#8220;botique&#8221; avgas, including both 100LL and the forthcoming 100 octane lead-free formulations, I have often wished a railroad track would be built, branching off the nearby main line, to enable railroad tank cars to be delivered to Mettatal Airport so as to reduce aviation fuel transportation costs. That might lower the cost of avgas at that particular airport to less than $10.00/gallon, or whatever price is forecast for the next few years. Of course one also has to consider the many other small airports which are part of our nation&#8217;s general aviation system.</p>
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		<title>By: George W. Braly</title>
		<link>http://blog.aopa.org/blog/?p=1350&#038;cpage=1#comment-96793</link>
		<dc:creator>George W. Braly</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 24 Aug 2010 02:14:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.aopa.org/blog/?p=1350#comment-96793</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Andre,

You write:
&gt;&gt;The remaining questions are: If its cost is around $6 in 2010, what will be its final retail price including margins and various amortization &amp; depreciation charges, and when will it be available at any airfield for your Cirrus, Mirage or other. Then the Invisible Hand of the Free Market will decide…&lt;&lt;

You should not seize on the $6.00 /gal number I quoted as a starting point for the price to &quot;go up&quot;.   Rather, you should, based on what I wrote, seize on the $6.00/gal number I mentioned as a starting point for the price to &quot;go DOWN.&quot;

Consider again,  the very carefully chosen language that was used:   &quot;In fact, it was around $6/gallon, made in small quantities. &quot;

By that statement I had assumed that most readers would appreciate that the pricing point as quoted was not derived  by using components that came  in bulk quantities measured by dozens or many dozens of rail road tank cars.   But, rather,  it was made at that price from components that came by truck, in barrels,  to a little town in southeastern Oklahoma.  

Regards,  George]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Andre,</p>
<p>You write:<br />
&gt;&gt;The remaining questions are: If its cost is around $6 in 2010, what will be its final retail price including margins and various amortization &amp; depreciation charges, and when will it be available at any airfield for your Cirrus, Mirage or other. Then the Invisible Hand of the Free Market will decide…&lt;&lt;</p>
<p>You should not seize on the $6.00 /gal number I quoted as a starting point for the price to &quot;go up&quot;.   Rather, you should, based on what I wrote, seize on the $6.00/gal number I mentioned as a starting point for the price to &quot;go DOWN.&quot;</p>
<p>Consider again,  the very carefully chosen language that was used:   &quot;In fact, it was around $6/gallon, made in small quantities. &quot;</p>
<p>By that statement I had assumed that most readers would appreciate that the pricing point as quoted was not derived  by using components that came  in bulk quantities measured by dozens or many dozens of rail road tank cars.   But, rather,  it was made at that price from components that came by truck, in barrels,  to a little town in southeastern Oklahoma.  </p>
<p>Regards,  George</p>
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		<title>By: Andre Teissier-duCros</title>
		<link>http://blog.aopa.org/blog/?p=1350&#038;cpage=1#comment-96789</link>
		<dc:creator>Andre Teissier-duCros</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 23 Aug 2010 16:28:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.aopa.org/blog/?p=1350#comment-96789</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I think George Braly has very well clarified the issue. GAMI hopes to get G100UL on the market in less, may be much less than 5 years. G100UL seems to be a true 100 Octane lead-free alcohol-free gasoline, and therefore constitutes a breakthrough. To my best knowledge this fuel is the one which has the most serious hopes to be the first operational lead-free Avgas. The remaining questions are: If its cost is around $6 in 2010, what will be its final retail price including margins and various amortization &amp; depreciation charges, and when will it be available at any airfield for your Cirrus, Mirage or other. Then the Invisible Hand of the Free Market will decide...]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think George Braly has very well clarified the issue. GAMI hopes to get G100UL on the market in less, may be much less than 5 years. G100UL seems to be a true 100 Octane lead-free alcohol-free gasoline, and therefore constitutes a breakthrough. To my best knowledge this fuel is the one which has the most serious hopes to be the first operational lead-free Avgas. The remaining questions are: If its cost is around $6 in 2010, what will be its final retail price including margins and various amortization &amp; depreciation charges, and when will it be available at any airfield for your Cirrus, Mirage or other. Then the Invisible Hand of the Free Market will decide&#8230;</p>
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